Fear of hands

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Fear of hands

Postby NancyJBritting » Sun Oct 12, 2008 9:33 am

Wow! I am SO interested to discuss your interactions with Kyo since learning that he is also afraid of hands!! That is how our phobic 5-yr-old Bonnie is, and I need all the advice and help I can get with her!

Yes, I also think that Bonnie loves me, but is afraid of me if out of her cage. She is very affectionate through the bars of her cage -- loves to give me "beak kisses" and "nose rubs" and will even put her feet through the bars and hold onto my fingers so I cannot walk away when I am trying to say Good-bye or Good-night. She loves nightly petting through the bars just before bedtime.

One problem has been that because Bonnie is afraid of hands, but wants to be affectionate to me, she wants to play "kissy-face" with me -- she will lean out her open cage door and give me gentle nibbles all over my face. It is very sweet, and I have hated to deny her that interaction which she begs for all the time.........BUT.........she is also unpredictable and has bitten me hard enough to draw blood on a number of occasions. I have grown fearful of letting her do it, and sense her saddness, but I don't like the surprise nips!

We have had Bonnie for three years this month, and I am guessing at her age of 5 yrs -- she may be only 3 1/2 or 4 yrs old. She still was very young when we got her, but had gone through her first molt because her tail feathers were all red -- no dark maroon on the ends. I am eager to see how old a CAG is when they loose those dark-tipped tail feathers.

Anyway, over those three years Bonnie and I have worked very hard on our relationship. My husband also tried hard at first, but her phobic reactions were so severe that he backed off from actually trying to touch her and now talks and whistles to her and gives her treats.

One of my biggest concerns has been that Bonnie is cage-bound because of her fears. She does enjoy a variety of toys in her cage and plays well with them if she has not recently suffered a fright. She likes her door open so she can look out at times during the day, which I do for her when I am nearby. But no matter how much I have tried to entice and encourage her, she is very reluctant to climb onto the top of her cage and play with toys......although she had done it a few times over the years.

About once every three months or so Bonnie must understandably get "cabin fever" in her cage, and she jumps out the door with much squawking and flapping of wings, and runs and hides somewhere on the floor. I have tried EVERYTHING I can think of in those instances.......laid on the floor nearby talking softly to her for hours, offered treats, ignored her and let her be for hours, sat with my back to her or my side to her for hours, etc. etc. etc. She will chirp pitifully and flutter her wings in a begging posture, but becomes terrified if I put my hand too close. or even a favorite perch too close. I have learned that spreading a large quilt on the floor near her with the sides being held up is the APPARENTLY least stressful way to get her back into her cage. She will eventually -- again with much squawking and flapping -- jump onto the quilt which I can quickly fold around her, pick her up and let her jump out of the quilt and into her cage. It is always a very tiring and emotionally-draining experience for me.......and I'm sure for her too! Although, in the beginning she would be traumatized for up to a week........now she is back to her friendly self in a couple hours, sometimes in just a few minutes.

One of the reasons we got Baxter was to see if that would help Bonnie become more secure with hands. I do know she is very interested in how eager he is to step out of his cage and onto my hand, and has been tempted to try it herself, but so far has not done it. She is as unpredictable with hands as she is with my face -- has actually stepped onto my finger a few times (always with the reward of getting to play kissy-face with me) -- but other times she will just bite my finger HARD. I know you said I need to have positive thoughts about her stepping onto my my finger, and I am trying to work on that!

This past week I was encouraged that after watching Baxter play on the top of his cage, Bonnie climbed onto the top of her cage and touched her toys tentatively. She climbed back and forth into and out of her cage several times through her open door. It was a step toward the goal I have had for her to be able to enjoy time out of her cage without all the trauma and drama that usually results! So I guess Baxter has already been a good influence in just one month.........and hopefully more progress will follow.

I am very eager to hear how Kyo acts around you, and what progress you have made with him, and how you have done it..........

Nancy
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Postby merlin » Mon Oct 13, 2008 6:13 am

Hi Nancy,

My progress is very close to yours. Kyo is pretty cage bound. He's been with me since Jan, 2002. When he first came, he screameed every time I got near the cage. Now, he is courageous enough to get on top of his cage ...and the other day, he was on a perch on his open door and did NOT scramble inside when I came into the room. So I see this as a great sign of future courage.

Kyo really loves me and is always regurgitating for me; but that makes it a little hard for me to use positive reinforcement of treats to help him. He'd rather "throw up," than eat around me! LOL.

But I still believe that one day he will shock me and get onto my hand. I can hold one foot with my hands and put my face in the cage. He purrs when I sing to him. He's such a sweet boy! But I am sad that he is still relatively stuck to the cage. He gets very sad when the girls come to the livingroom with me.

Don't give up on Bonnie. You have not had Baxter for that long, and Bonnie seems to be picking up things by watching him. Eventually, she'll be on top of the cage and letting you touch her with hands in the cage. The positive reinforcement really does help, so do it as as much as you can.

Thanks for sharing!
Maggie-
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Fear of hands, cont.

Postby NancyJBritting » Mon Oct 13, 2008 11:44 pm

Has Kyo ever gotten out of his cage and on the floor? If so, how did you/or do you get him back into his cage?

Do you know how old Kyo is, and when his phobias started or what probably caused them?

Just since I last wrote, Bonnie jumped out of her cage again -- this time in the "bird room." She did it while Baxter was out of his cage, so I imagine she wanted to be "having fun" like he was. Since she was in a safe room, I decided to try to let her take her time getting back into her cage. But she just sat on the floor or on a rung of a chair for THREE hours, showing begging postures or chirping nervously.

Off and on during that time I sat near her on the floor, held my hand out to her as close as possible until she showed signs of fear rather than begging, left the room to see if that would encourage her to go back to her cage, etc. She always seemed relieved when I came back into the room, like she found comfort in having me nearby. I considered leaving her out until dark, but feel sorry for her with no food or water for so long, not to mention needing to get some other things done in other parts of the house. So my husband got on one side of the room and I on the other with her cage closest to her. We didn't move hardly at all so as not to give her the sense of being chased, but kept telling her "Good Girl" with every step she took toward her cage, until she finally climbed into it.........which was a huge relief to me.

HOWEVER.........after she goes back to her cage, I always sense a feeling of disappointment coming from her........like she was hoping that I would sit and hold her like I do Baxter. It makes me feel SO SAD, but I don't know how to get her to have the courage to step onto my hand. As you say about Kyo, I still have hope that someday she will be willing to do it.

I would love to know WHY she jumps onto the floor, and WHY she will sit there for hours and hours -- I can't tell if she is enjoying the "new surroundings" or if she is scared and just trying to be quiet until the danger is past. I tell her over and over that I just want to give her a good life and I just want her to be happy and content.

Kyo has been around your girls for over six years now........and he still has a long way to go to learn from them to trust stepping onto you hand! I guess I need to have more patience with Bonnie. Has Kyo ever bitten you if you reach inside his cage to touch him?

It's really helpful to me to hear about other phobic greys and the progress they have made. Thanks!

Nancy
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Location: Coastal North Carolina, US

Postby merlin » Fri Oct 17, 2008 2:06 am

Yes. Kyo has bitten. What bird doesn't? LOL.

Kyo is 18 years old and has been like this for many years. He was first in the Pepperberg Lab and I think he went phobic when a student acted more agrressive than he liked. Phobias are started I think because we do not bring up the grey babies like their parents do. In Africa, we think they are in the family for at least a year and then juvenile groups before really growing up. Males, especially, need the adolescent boy sparring experience because it gives them confidence, but this is not done in captivity. Instead, they are weaned and bred in 3-4 months, just like the South American birds who are bred by parents to join the flock at 3-4 months old after fledging. It's very different. So the male Greys tend to go phobic easier, the moment something happens that terrifies them. Read the Spring 2002 download.

In the Pepperberg lab, it was set up so that Kyo would get on a chair and be rolled in to join the other birds, but my house is not set up that way. I wish they had stick trained him. He used to get on hands before the phobic reaction started. He still got on one lady's hand, but can't get over the rift yet with me. But HE WILL!

When he is on the floor, he hangs out on the bottom of the cage or tries to chew the walls, which I hate. I now have sheets protecting the corners of the wall. When I want him in his cage, I sweetly coach him and use the same phrase to let him know. Then he gets a reward. He's a good boy.
Mag-
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Postby NancyJBritting » Tue Jun 09, 2009 4:19 am

It's been a LONG time since I've written! My baby grey, Baxter, is now 13 mo. old. Every month as he got older I would see a little more independence showing in his attitude. Now, he seems determined to "have his own way" as much as possible! I guess this is all part of growing up and "growing away" from dependence on his "parents," but it is posing some problems......

For one thing, Baxter is starting to not want to step onto my hand or even let me touch him with my hand! This is especially of concern to me since our older rescued grey seems afraid of hands, and I have tried so hard to make sure Baxter never became afraid of hands. Because Baxter is still fully flighted, he prefers to fly where he wants to go......or fly to my shoulder or my head if he wants to ride along to where I am going.

I started trying to give him positive reinforcement when we first got him at 4 mo., and would give him a sunflower seed every time he would "step up" or "step down" or fly to me when I said "come." But it seemed after a month or so of that reward system, he got annoyed with the idea and would BITE my finger instead of taking the seed! I tried other rewards, but sunflower seeds were his favorite and the only thing he wouldn't drop immediately.

Baxter also used to LOVE to "cuddle" and would want petting on his special soft grey blanket every morning and evening. Then he starting not coming to me when I got out the blanket, but would sit on my shoulder and bend his head down for cuddling. Then he gave that up, but would sit with his head down for petting when he first came out of his cage. Now he has given that up too! I feel so bad that he seems to not want to be petted any more!

Do you think this is all part of his age.........and that he might return to being more compliant and wanting petting after he gets over this stage? Did your girls go through an "independent" stage during their second year?

I must admit, I have been worn to exhaustion trying to keep four birds happy!! Since I last wrote, we have added an 8-mo-old baby Hyacinth macaw as a "companion" for our 2 1/2 yr-old Hyacinth, Zeus. Zeus did NOT think that was a good idea, and we have had a lot of jealousy problems for the three months that Azure has been with us. I think it would be SO MUCH EASIER to have just one bird to be a constant companion, much like the relationship you originally had with Merlin. Every time we are trying to give one bird some focused attention, the other three are feeling sad and left out and complaining. The sensation of being torn into four directions has taken a toll on my energy, creativity, positive attitude, and inner peace.

I would give anything to have only one bird again........but we can't give up these precious babies that we have brought into our home and made a part of our flock!!! It would not be fair to them. So we do the best we can and try to make them as happy as possible and know that we love each of them as a special little being.

Can you give me some encouragement that bird relationships will get better as time goes on???

Nancy
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