[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /viewtopic.php on line 988: date(): It is not safe to rely on the system's timezone settings. You are *required* to use the date.timezone setting or the date_default_timezone_set() function. In case you used any of those methods and you are still getting this warning, you most likely misspelled the timezone identifier. We selected the timezone 'UTC' for now, but please set date.timezone to select your timezone.
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /viewtopic.php on line 988: getdate(): It is not safe to rely on the system's timezone settings. You are *required* to use the date.timezone setting or the date_default_timezone_set() function. In case you used any of those methods and you are still getting this warning, you most likely misspelled the timezone identifier. We selected the timezone 'UTC' for now, but please set date.timezone to select your timezone.
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/functions.php on line 4505: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /includes/functions.php:3706)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/functions.php on line 4507: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /includes/functions.php:3706)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/functions.php on line 4508: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /includes/functions.php:3706)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/functions.php on line 4509: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /includes/functions.php:3706)
AfricanGreys.com • View topic - Cleo needs a home

Cleo needs a home

Welcome to the Grey Play Round Table African grey Question and Answer Board. Maggie Wright, author of the Barron's Grey pet manual and creator of the Grey Play Round Table African grey newsletter/magazine, and Lisa Bono, African grey behavior expert, will be the two moderators to answer your questions. Please check out the areas that have already been dealt with... and submit your new questions.


Due to the incredibly high volume of SPAM, the board has been set up so that you cannot submit a question. Instead, please send me your question at merlin@AfricanGreys.com and I will post it for you. Then, both Lisa and I will post responses. Sorry for the inconvenience.

PLEASE send me your questions... we REALLY want to help you!!! merlin@AfricanGreys.com.


Wishing you GREY'T Blessings!
Maggie Wright

Moderator: merlin

Cleo needs a home

Postby merlin » Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:39 am

Dear Round Table,

We have recently been offered a 9 year old Grey. She was at a pet store
for her first year and then with one family. This family no longer spends time
with her. We visited last week, and found the bird "Cleo" pretty plucked ~ not
down to skin but her long feathers were gone. I couldn't tell if the feathers
were broken or gone.

Her owner already had her out of the cage, admitting Cleo was cage aggressive.
They used a large wooden rod (which Cleo was not happy with and didn't cooperate
with) to move her from place to place.

Mutual friends have told us that Cleo was hand tamed, taken for rides in the car,
and was very bonded to her family until lengthened hours at work took them away.

She was pitiful to look at and I felt so bad for her.

Is there any hope we can solve her feather picking? Also I'm not sure if we can
get her to trust us ~ what can we do to encourage her to trust us? We will have to
put her in a smaller cage, get her home and unloaded to her big cage... then the
next week load her up again for an hour long ride to the bird vet! I wouldn't be
so thrilled with folks who did that to me. How can we make this transition easier for her?

Any suggestions would be appreciated greatly. She seems like an angry, lonely bird
that was once happy and trusting. We'd sure love to have her be a part of our family
but wonder if we can meet her needs.

thanks for your time
Laurie and family
merlin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 188
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Re: Cleo needs a home

Postby merlin » Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:41 am

Dear Laurie and Family,
You would be a GODSEND to that precious little bird! Yes. You can bring back trust in her. You may not be able to get her to completely stop picking, because some of it can become habit. If it is from emotional issues, she may surprise you and completely stop. If it is from something physical, she will improve once on a better diet.

When you bring her in, find something (food) she adores and do not serve to her in the cage. Instead, use it as a TREAT and give to her from your hands to let her know how much you love her and to reward her. If you choose something like sunflower seeds, only give her one seed at a time or cashew bits or peanut bits, and so on. Do the bits so you can reward often. Stay with her cage and with her current diet for the first few weeks until she is settled in at your home. Then you can gradually upgrade the diet, but never do it "cold turkey." Birds tend to eat what they are used to and know (what they were taught). If you give her something she does not recognize, she will starve before eating something unfamiliar. That is instinctive.

Let her know how much you love her. Stay calm around her and don't force her to do anything. If she seems nervous and unsure, you may want to puree some sweet potato or butternut squash and spoon feed to her, too. One or two spoonfuls, not a lot but enough to help her feel secure.

Cleo will behave differently in your home for the first few weeks because it is not her territory. This is the time or window you will have to work with her and help her feel safe and secure in your home.

The trusting will come from having a calm, secure home that you will give her... and giving her the treat rewards. And just spent lots of time with her by the cage telling her that this is her new home for the rest of her life and you love her and are so happy to have her. She'll come around when she consistently feels the calm and the love coming from you. Don't force her to get up onto your hand if she is afraid. She will in time, when she feels the trust.

I guess the best thing for the transfer from cage to cage is to try to keep the carrier near her and let her play in it before putting her back in. Or at least keep it in the room so she is used to seeing it. I like to introduce all new things, even new cages, in the same way that you introduce a toy... slowly. Can you get a vet to visit her?

I think you should give it a try. You are her LAST HOPE. I think you and Cleo will do wonders for each other! PLEASE keep me posted!!!
Love & Blessings,
Maggie-
www.AfricanGreys.com
merlin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 188
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Re: Cleo needs a home

Postby merlin » Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:42 am

Dear Maggie,

I can't really tell you how it is here. Little Cleo (her name was Bongo, not Cleo, but we
are hoping its ok to change it to Cleo.. any thoughts on that?) has won our hearts completely!

She is very nervous indeed. When we step close to her cage, she trembles. However she
will take a peanut or apple slice from my hand daintily. My daughter was eating a cookie by
Cleo this afternoon, and out of the blue Cleo (who hasn't said anything) says, "want some?"
We almost fell over!!! Of course, Cleo got a snack ~ altho much healthier than a cookie.
(why I would feed my parrot better than my daughter is a mystery to me)

We're trying to keep Cleo engaged as much as possible.. doing all our activities by her cage
if possible. She is all eyes and ears right now. Cage aggressive for sure, but not attacking
really. Of course, we haven't tested her in that. If she isn't eating, sleeping or watching us,
she's plucking. Sometimes she won't watch us but prefers to pluck. It hurts to see her do this
but I'm trying to stay encouraged by the fact that she did choose to communicate to us.

She's by our other birds, a geriatric cockatiel, a dove and a boisterous conure. I don't think
she's been by birds before, so she is very quiet and observant.

Maggie.... this bird has to be the most wonderful. I know you might hear that alot, but I am
still amazed that she is here. I can't wait til she really trusts us enough to take her out of her
cage and more into our life. We watched a movie last night and the conure wouldn't go to
bed as he usually does, but insisted on watching with us.. on my son's shoulder. When the
movie was over, he cheerfully went to bed (both of them did!) Amazing. I can't wait until
Cleo joins us in those moments.

"want some"... isn't she incredible?

Laurie
merlin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 188
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Re: Cleo needs a home

Postby merlin » Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:43 am

Dear Maggie,

We are going with a bird vet recommended by a bird rescue. I can ask for
the various blood tests via phone first, to see how she will handle Cleo.

At dinner tonight, Cleo can't quite see us at the table but she can hear us..
we were interrupted by her chatting :^) I think she was trying to beckon us
to her! I arrived with some baby food squash.. and gave her a spoon to
eat off of. Absolutely she loved it! She chatted briefly after each slurpy
beakful! couldn't quite recognize her words. One sounded like "thank you"
and another like "whatever". We really don't care what she says (well I guess
we'd not be happy with swearing) as long as she's happy. Her attention does
seem to be more focused on us, altho it may just be my imagination. I'd have
never thought of the squash on a spoon ~ so thank you for that.

We are already limiting her visitors and what they do near her. No excessive
noise, even happy noises, allowed for now. The last thing we want is to have her screaming!
Altho from what I've read we are gonna have some screaming ~ but I'd like that to be with joy
and not from fear. So far she's been very mello

When we arrived to pick her up, the owner was crying. I felt so bad for her. I
told her we'd leave without Cleo, but she's like.. no no.. Cleo needs a new home.
She proceeded to not only give us the bird, but her cage and toys and a travel cage
and a playground that sits on wheels! Cleo can't use it yet, because she won't let our
hands near her to transport her onto it, but oh my goodness ~ what a setup! It's
very obvious that Cleo was well loved. I think perhaps neglect was there, but maybe not
attachment disorder :^) which is good news all the way around.
There is even a suction perch which was used in the shower and in the car.. so Cleo could see outside!

We've told the previous owner she can come visit whenever she wants to. This entire experience
has the adoption flavor. I am so satisfied in my heart with Cleo. I will be overjoyed if she can
trust again!

I can't thank you enough for your encouragement. I think we would've backed out if you
hadn't sent that encouraging email. Imagine my surprise, after I ordered 2 books from Amazon
that were highly recommended by the bird rescue ~ to find you as the author to one of them!
I will attempt to send a photo your way. I can't thank you enough.

love,
Laurie, Cleo and family
merlin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 188
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Re: Cleo needs a home

Postby merlin » Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:45 am

Dear Maggie Mentor,
You got me on the biting fear!!!! I remember (vividly and in living color!) getting bit by our cockatiel and it was like her
beak was a can opener! She literally opened my finger! Not exactly sure how I'm gonna conquer the fear issue.
I did let Cleo explore my fingers this morning (rare moment of courage after reading your email) but a few seconds of her rubbing my finger
then tasting my skin then excitedly pinching... well of course I withdrew. Bad form I know, I know I know... (I work with
horses so I really do know) I'm brave enough to feed her itty bitty tiny bits of stuff where she has to literally pick it up between my fingers
and she's remained gentle to the extreme, however, if my hand comes anywhere near her without the snack, look out. Sometimes she
doesn't even like me to change her food dish, altho I think we're working past that.

I'm thinking to get her used to the stick... stepping up and down when I ask her to, with comfort, then going to different rooms on it
with comfort, and maybe then the trust will be there for both of us to try my hand. Let me know what you think.

The folks before us were very afraid of her. When the owner let Cleo out, the teenagers ran out of the room!!
So I think we have bad history for Cleo here. She's learned to dominate just like our crazy mares do! I did put some oatmeal
on the "stick" they used to pick her off the floor with. Cleo dislikes the stick. Couldn't get her to eat off of it, so used a spoon and she did relax
and get closer. My goal was to continue using the "stick" (maybe I should get a different one?) while giving her favorite
snacks until she comes willingly and sits on it to eat them. ? Thoughts?

She hasn't flown off her cage since we've put it on the floor ~ keeping her lower than us while she's out.
I don't think she enjoys flying as much as walking and climbing.

Yesterday was a bad emotional day for me. Not like a crying, yelling or anger day.. just felt off and not
my usual happy self. Altho she chatted, she was quieter than usual and refused to come out all day. Interesting isn't she?
I'm still amazed and in love :^)
Laurie
merlin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 188
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Re: Cleo needs a home

Postby merlin » Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:45 am

Hi Laurie,
Cleo sounds wonderful. Sounds like she's settling in nicely. About toys, you don't really want the cage to be too chocked full of toys.. maybe 4 or 5. If more, see which ones she does not play with and remove them from the cage. Then introduce them later. When you get new toys, you need to introduce them very slowly to help her adjust to them. I think the directions are in my book.

As to the flying off cage. Does she land on a rug? You need to have something pretty soft for her to land on, like a towel or a cushy scatter rug or bathroom rug, or something. If you get something, make it the relatively same color as what's in the room. If it is different, it will make her nervous and then you would need to introduce it like a toy... slowly. That's because of their instincts... anything that is near the cage and has not been seen or the color has not been seen, it COULD be a predator (in bird's mind) so they become nervous and cautious.

If Cleo loves peanuts, get some peanuts and break the individual pieces into bits and serve the bits to her with your hand thru the cage bars as a reward. The smaller the bits, the more you can give as reward to work with her. Do NOT serve them in cage, only from your hand to get her even closer to you.

To get Cleo used to a stick, you need first to introduce it slowly to her as a toy. You need to play with it and put it about 10 feet from cage when you're not playing with it. Every few days move it a little closer to cage and play with it, getting very excited. It would help to work with her away from her cage. But that is hard to do if she won't get onto your hand. Is she hand tamed? When was the last time she has been on one?

Have you been able to give her little head rubs? You will need to let go of your biting fears. If you are afraid, you are telling her telepathically to bite you. You WILL get bitten, as they do do that. But that comes with the territory. You need to let go of the fear and put your hand in the cage and rub her head when she lets you. You also need to use that same hand to give the treats. She will get closer to you quicker that way. The nudging of your hand is some kind of close gesture to let you know she's becoming comfortable with you and the hand.

Keep me posted!
Blessings,
Maggie-
merlin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 188
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Re: Cleo needs a home

Postby merlin » Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:46 am

Thanks for the kick in the pants!

You're right. Cleo is responding to us ~ and it is positive.
I have to get over the fact that she's picking.. which I continually
assume is her unhappiness hanging out. If I just discount the plucking
and also the trembling, which can alarm me. I don't know if she trembles from fear,
cold, nerves or just because... it limits her shower time, which she loves but I
just don't want her to catch a chill. I'll be glad when she's secure enough that
I can move her cage into the sunlight without freaking her out.
I have noticed other physical signs from her.. like when
she stretches herself way tall ~ I believe that means she is afraid.
When she stretches way forward toward me.. well I don't know if that
means I should get out of her space or come closer...

She is trying in her own ways to reach out to us. At the same time, we are
trying to reach out to her ~ perhaps not always in the best parrot ways, but I think
she understands (I really do) that we mean well.

My friends think I'm nuts to spend so much time with her while my family is
happy with it, but pretty much backs off from doing anything other than giving
Cleo an occasional peanut. That lack of support causes me to second-guess often
(and email you with panic) so you are correct in your observation. I don't want Cleo
to leave but I want her to be happy and secure more than I want to keep her here.

In the world of special needs adoption (human), I would do therapeutic
parenting (which most parents don't understand and would never try) with
a child for a long time before I get results. Something close to a solid month ~ 24/7 ~
for every year of neglect... that's before I'd see much breakthru in the area
of trust. So if I go with that loose guideline, I should be really happy ~ look how Cleo
and I can communicate already, in just a few weeks!

thanks for the encouragement,
Laurie and Cleo
merlin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 188
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Re: Cleo needs a home

Postby merlin » Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:47 am

Hi Laurie,
DON'T BE SAD!!! You have to give this a whole lot more time. She has trusted before and got burned. It could take a year or two to be in a cuddly place with her, if ever. The talking and wanting you guys near tells me she is getting more comfortable there. If she was unhappy, she would not talk and whistle. Take that as assurance so far.

Taking food from your fingers and rubbing her beak on them is another major sign. You have to take one step at a time. If you wanted a Grey that trusted you right away, you should have gotten a hand-raised baby, but you didn't. You chose to give this bird a last shot at being happy and you guys are on that road. The old family probably would take her back, as they love her... BUT they would continue to ignore her and look for another home. You don't want that for this angel who once was a very happy little pet.

Stop questioning yourself and psychically tell this bird that you love her and are committed to her. Spend lots of time near the cage talking to her and telling her you love her. Tell her you want to be close but you will go at her pace. Make up a song that includes her name and sing to her a lot. Teach her more command phrases. When you bring her something, say "Want... (whatever the object is)" every time you give something to her to teach her she can request it.

I promise she is getting more happy there the more she relaxes, which is the sign. You just now must assure her that this is her final home and mean it. Don't second-guess yourself. This will work.

Thanks for keeping me updated. I was thinking about you today. Looking forward to hearing more great news!!!
Love & Blessings,
Maggie-

PS: You may NEVER stop the picking. When it is as extreme as she is, it usually does not change. It has become a habit and there is a psychic reward that they sometimes get from it. So, just love her as she is and tell her she is beautiful. Stopping to pluck should not be a sign to you about whether or not you are providing a good home.
merlin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 188
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Re: Cleo needs a home

Postby merlin » Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:50 am

Oh my goodness Maggie! We are not giving up on Cleo because she picked one of us!
Indeed!! This is exactly what I've been hoping for! It signals to me that she is actually fitting
in here and is starting to choose to be happy. :^) I needed her to do that. Feathers or no. :^)

And picking my husband is just so outlandish! But also perfect. The rest of us would have been
honored with Cleo's attention, but we have other animals.. most of them outside. Randy has
had 6 back surgeries in the last 2 years, and so his outside animals never see him. He is still
in a back brace and is doing much better, but may never be able to ride a horse again. (spinal
fusion) So you see how perfect Cleo's union with him is? Just a wonder and marvel and I do
believe God had his hand in it. (some folks think God doesn't care about tiny details, but for
us He is all about tiny details :^) Thats how we believe Cleo even came to our house!)

Anyway, I would like the number of your friend to see if we can help Randy do the right thing.
He is so sad that he can't "snack" Cleo, but understands entirely because of our history with
attachment disordered kids. He just offers her his hand to play with. Hopefully Cleo will allow
others of us into her world, because then she will have all the attention a birdie could want. If
not, she will have to be content with Randy's limited time to give her. The rest of us will still
keep doing what we do now, as much as she can tolerate.

We are one happy household! Cleo is happy! Randy is happy! And the kids just can't tease
their dad enough. Thank you so much. .
merlin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 188
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Re: Cleo needs a home

Postby merlin » Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:50 am

Dear Laurie,
You need to remember that Greys are domestically bred parrots with their wild instincts in-tact. Cleo has chosen Randy as her mate and that makes you guys the "enemy," her competition for the mate. Do not get upset, but try to understand it. Now, do NOT let Randy give her ANY treats..... but the treats must only go from your hand now. This will help her endear to you, although she will still choose Randy as the mate. It takes time, but you can keep her open to other humans too. But it takes lots of work and understanding. Don't get your feelings hurt and don't let the kids. Try to understand this is how nature works, and she cannot help it.

If Randy is willing, he will be able to work wonders with Cleo in getting her to be out of the cage and be handled by him. I have a good friend who is a good Grey behavior consultant. If you're interested, I'll give you her name.

You've made a commitment to this bird, so PLEASE don't give up on her because she has chosen a favorite person. You can work through it. Again, I can refer you to someone who can guide you through it.

Keep me posted. You and Cleo are a very lucky family!
Love,
Maggie-
merlin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 188
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Re: Cleo needs a home

Postby merlin » Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:52 am

Dear Maggie,

I'd like to bring you up to date on Cleo, our little Wisconsin grey. Many times these many months we almost rehomed her with
a very fine local bird rescue. This gal knows her birds and loves them lots. She would love to have Cleo for her personal bird ~

Cleo did well at her house when we were gone a week this summer. Its a question of feathers that I have for you. It did
appear in that week that Cleo started feathering again. The rescue is a private home, has tons of birds; they are loose and
basically have the house. This gal is a marvelous resource and has been very very kind. Now that Cleo is back with us I
can't help but notice that she does periodically pluck herself.

On the positive side ~ Cleo FINALLY trusts us to step up!! Oh my goodness what a day THAT was! She is still cage aggressive but
will willing step up with our son when she is on the outside of it, going to various rooms in the house, tearing up his math notebook
(teacher ~ my bird ate it!) or play on the xbox with him. She dances to his games. Also adores sitting on my hubbies lap to watch
movies and be stroked by him, She will take any type of food from our hands and is very very talkative ~ she's a riot that way.
She has come so far and we are so proud of her... but.... my concern is; should we give her to the rescue? If Cleo's feather would
grow back there, does that mean she'd prefer it there?

I know you have no crystal ball about this and actually feel kinda silly asking, but I do respect your opinion. We don't really
want to give Cleo away, but then we don't want Cleo to be unhappy here either.

thanks for everything ~ I'll try to send a photo of Cleo (still plucked a tad) doing school with our son. :^)
Laurie
----- -

Oh my goodness Maggie! We are not giving up on Cleo because she picked one of us!
Indeed!! This is exactly what I've been hoping for! It signals to me that she is actually fitting
in here and is starting to choose to be happy. :^) I needed her to do that. Feathers or no. :^)

And picking my husband is just so outlandish! But also perfect. The rest of us would have been
honored with Cleo's attention, but we have other animals.. most of them outside. Randy has
had 6 back surgeries in the last 2 years, and so his outside animals never see him. He is still
in a back brace and is doing much better, but may never be able to ride a horse again. (spinal
fusion) So you see how perfect Cleo's union with him is? Just a wonder and marvel and I do
believe God had his hand in it. (some folks think God doesn't care about tiny details, but for
us He is all about tiny details :^) Thats how we believe Cleo even came to our house!)

We are one happy household! Cleo is happy! Randy is happy! And the kids just can't tease
their dad enough. Thank you so much. I'll be looking for the number of that consultant.
merlin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 188
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Re: Cleo needs a home

Postby merlin » Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:53 am

Dear Laurie,
You need to remember that Greys are domestically bred parrots with their wild instincts in-tact. Cleo has chosen Randy as her mate and that makes you guys the "enemy," her competition for the mate. Do not get upset, but try to understand it. Now, do NOT let Randy give her ANY treats..... but the treats must only go from your hand now. This will help her endear to you, although she will still choose Randy as the mate. It takes time, but you can keep her open to other humans too. But it takes lots of work and understanding. Don't get your feelings hurt and don't let the kids. Try to understand this is how nature works, and she cannot help it.

If Randy is willing, he will be able to work wonders with Cleo in getting her to be out of the cage and be handled by him. I have a good friend who is a good Grey behavior consultant. If you're interested, I'll give you her name.

You've made a commitment to this bird, so PLEASE don't give up on her because she has chosen a favorite person. You can work through it. Again, I can refer you to someone who can guide you through it.

Keep me posted. You and Cleo are a very lucky family!
Love,
Maggie
merlin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 188
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Re: Cleo needs a home

Postby merlin » Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:54 am

Dear Maggie!

We have, as a family (and Cleo is part of that) definitely decided not to pursue a second grey.
We are having tons of fun with her ~ so it is tempting. But we all sense her connection with us
is still in its infancy, still fragile. Every day she allows more interaction, surprises us with more
demands for our company, but... she still has many trust issues to overcome, and for a fact,
so do we. Cleo is our baby but also our teacher. We've gotten our book learning from you,
but she has been the "hands-on" instructor in everyway. She is teaching us her language as
well as her needs, her fears. At this point, a second grey would hinder our relationship, and
maybe even destroy it. A risk we aren't willing to take.

Maybe someday, down the road when we are all adjusted and looking for new adventures,
we will attempt another grey. For now, we are blessed with Cleo. And she is more than enough.

thank you always ~ again and again,
Laurie and family
merlin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 188
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Re: Cleo needs a home

Postby Lisa A. Bono » Thu Nov 24, 2011 10:42 pm

Cleo is sounding very much like my Abby. It took about 9 months for Abby to trust me, but she is a wonderful addition to my family. The key to working with a grey is patience. As you mentioned as time goes by, she is accepting of more interaction. This will only continue to grow with time.
Image
International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants-
Associate Certified Parrot Behavior Consultant #729
Lisa A. Bono
 
Posts: 41
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2011 3:21 pm
Location: Long Beach Island


Return to Grey Questions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron