HELP--PBF Disease

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HELP--PBF Disease

Postby allie » Sat Nov 25, 2006 2:03 am

Maggie,

I am so freaked out. I haven't yet seen the vet, but I think Luna has Psittacine Beak and Feather Disease. Talked to the vet and told him her symptoms, and he said it was his primary concern and that I should bring her in for testing and that it can be slowed down with antiviral drugs. I know this disease is eventually fatal and usually involves a series of opportunistic infections in older birds before death. Luna is 8 years old.

Well, she has the separation of the ramphotheca of the beak, overgrowth on one side, and a mealy appearance on the base of the beak on one side. Her down feathers under the wing have looked natty ever since I got her but I didn't know it was a symptom. She's got red feathers coming in on her legs, but most importantly and what clued me in was that her new molt feathers came in really bizarre with extra long sheaths that wouldn't slide off. The new "feathers" have thick, stubby shafts and there are no barbs coming off a shaft. AND these odd things are falling out.

I am so confused so I am asking for help from everyone I have contact with in the Grey/Parrot community. My delimma is why bring her in if it's untreatable? I mean, Luna is a bird that is still barely socialized and is really easily freaked out. Going to the avian vet nearest me requires a one hour drive both ways, and they will be drawing blood. If she's already ill, I'm afraid of exposing her to other diseases, or exacerbating her illness with the stress. Should I just keep her stress as low as possible and continue feeding a good diet (Harrison's, fruit, grains, veggies that she doesn't eat)?

I DO have a contact for a vet who specializes in testing in Georgia, thanks to some other Parrot People. Do you know anything about this disease, or most of all, do you know anyone who has had to support an older bird with this chronic disease? I understand that most Greys die within weeks of this disease, but Luna is showing the symptoms of chronic disease.

I feel like this is an ethical delimma. Is it worth stressing her and giving her drugs that may have nasty side effects just to prolong her life a year or so? Because since she is so easily stressed, it could take weeks to recover from each vet visit. HELP. Anything you can tell me or anyone you can connect me with would be so appreciated.

Alison and Luna
The bird that lives with me is smarter than me!
allie
 
Posts: 74
Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 10:48 pm
Location: Southern USA

Postby Maggie » Sat Nov 25, 2006 5:41 am

Allie,

WOW! First I am shocked because Greys that get PBFD usually get it as young chicks. Most older Greys do not get it. So, if she has had it for a long time, I am surprised she has not had the symptoms earlier in life. But perhaps there is an adult version that I am not aware of.

You need to speak with Dr. Ritchie at the University of Georgia. He has done a lot of research on it.

I think you need to meet with the vet at least once and find out what you can do to help Luna. Is there a vet that can do a house call?

You may be asked to donate her to help research. I do not know if they do that. But if they do and you love this bird, I would keep her....not give her to others to care for her. I would see it to the end with this precious baby who is very connected with you.

You do not have other birds in your home that can catch the disease. It would also mean you cannot have other birds in your home after Luna goes.....or at least until the house is THOROUGHLY cleaned...because the germs are hard to rid of.

But once you know what to do and understand the disease better, I would be like you and keep her and help her have a happy rest of her life.

I'm SO sorry that this may be happening!

PLEASE keep me posted!

Much Love,
Maggie-
Maggie
 

Postby Maggie » Sat Nov 25, 2006 5:49 am

Allie,

I would speak with the vet about your concerns. Perhaps if he could look at her and diagnose without the blood test...or at least do one blood test to confirm but not stress her out after that with future tests. If the antiviral helps, this may be a good thing if it does not cause too much stress.

Again, is it possible for the vet to do a house call first and come in to see her and talk with you? Perhaps the vet would do that for extra money. I have had vets come in to see my guys before.

After talking with the vet, you may understand better the prognosis for Luna. Then you can make an ethical decision. I will help you.

If you need to speak directly with me, my number in Phoenix is 602-626-8927. Give me a call. I'm here for you guys.

Hugs,
Msss.Mag-
Maggie
 

Postby allie » Mon Nov 27, 2006 12:42 am

Maggie,

Thanks so much; you are such a dear to put so much love into us strangers asking for help. Right now, I'm going to see how much info
i can get before taking her in. The resident I spoke with at the vet school said to bring her in for testing, but he's also the guy that wanted to gas her and scope her because she sneezes a lot (despite the fact that he said she looked very healthy with no sign of respiratory infection) and I''m so glad I didn't do that (last August). I wonder if they will give me a call back if I call again and ask to talk to a BOARDED vet. I mean, this guy isn't a bird-person. I don't think he takes into account the stress involved in a vet trip for birds.

I was once a med student before becoming chronically ill myself, and I've even been reading the veterinary journal papers about this disease. She definitely has signs of it on the beak and those nasty things that came in under those long sticky sheaths, a symptom in itself. But her weight is good---actually increasing, she's eating well, and acting pretty normal. I guess part of this is my illness too. If I were healthy, I think I would have carefully taken her in myself right away, knowing that I know how to reduce her stress. We live one hour from the vet school and they are the only vets around that see birds. I'm kinda stuck.

OK, Monday, I'll attempt another call to our vet school to see if I can get more info from the avian boarded vet, and I'll see if there's any way I can ask Dr. Ritchie at UG about testing from home or anything else. I'm tempted to call you too Maggie, because I'm so confused, but I am so touched by your offer. I want to wait until I need to resolve what is best for her, the ethical part. She is soooo easily terrified. Thanks for your moral support; it means so much at a time like this.

I've read all about the different forms of the disease according to species and age (note: no info mentions Timnehs; all studies are done on Congos and that makes me wonder if they react differently), and about the interferon treatment they are just starting to try, but if you come across any other info or people who have dealt with an older, chronic form, or an infected timneh, please do share. I know you will. Thank you

Alison
The bird that lives with me is smarter than me!
allie
 
Posts: 74
Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 10:48 pm
Location: Southern USA

Postby Maggie » Mon Nov 27, 2006 1:05 am

Allie,

The offer to talk on the phone is always open. Call me when you are ready.

One thing, as I said before, is that you do not have other birds in the home who can get affected.....so this makes it good to be able to keep her at home and work with her.

I am sure that someone would be willing to come in to see her at your home. Hopefully, they can tell you more, just by looking at her.

Anyway, I am here.

Hugs,
Mag-
Maggie
 

Postby allie » Mon Nov 27, 2006 1:45 am

Maggie,

I wanted to share this with you and your readers just to educate about this scary disease. Birds can carry it with no symptoms. This is a quote taken from an article written by Margaret Wissman DVM:

"However, older birds, often up to 20 years of age that had been clinically normal throughout most of their lives, can also suddenly break with all the signs of PBFD. It is thought that birds are usually exposed to the PBFD virus at a young age, when their immune systems aren’t as strong, and they may appear normal for years before finally developing signs of PBFD. It is suspected that these birds are infected and eventually break down with illness, perhaps years later. "

Mybe this will help someone else too. This is what concerns me as her previous mate is an oddly unfeathered bird with a bizarre history. It has no head feathers despite being caged alone now. I'll let you know more when I can. Unfortunately, there is no one to do a house call. I just hope I can speak with or email Dr. Ritchie.

Alison
The bird that lives with me is smarter than me!
allie
 
Posts: 74
Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 10:48 pm
Location: Southern USA

Postby Maggie » Mon Nov 27, 2006 7:18 pm

Allie,

I am MIFFED that no one will make a house call. It tells me something about the people and their integrity. Luna is a nervous bird and gets terrified easily and you are sick in the bed. There has GOT to be someone in the area near you that will do just one house call. Did you offer to pay them for their time to come over?

If Luna has it, you will need to also contact the owner of her old mate. She may have gotten it from him.

Awaiting your call. I am here for you guys.

Hugs,
Maggie-
Maggie
 

Postby allie » Thu Nov 30, 2006 5:02 pm

Maggie, I spoke to the avian boarded vet, and got a much better understanding of what MIGHT be going on. He said she will need to be checked for PBFD because the feather abnormalities worried him. He was not as worried about her beak because he said Greys often have peeling or cracks on the beak.

He works at the vet school one hour away. I couldn't even ask him to make a house call. I know our local vet does this but you know, he's local, so it doesn't put him out that much, and he's mainly large animal.

I feel better though because he said that while PBFD is a concern, there are other things that could cause feather abnormalities other than malnutriion and PBFD, like fungal infections of the follicles.

I held her today and blew on her feathers, raising them, looking for the weird new ones and they weren't there anymore. I guess they fell out. I did find some weird ones on the floor.

Anyway, I did see a new maroon tail feather coming in and I think it's normal!! This is good news. It's just short right now, but that's normal right? They emerge from the sheath as small normal feathers and then continue to grow? or do I have it wrong? This is "our" first molt.

The vet said he personally wants to see her and was very nice and felt the risk of stress was outweighed by the probable benefit of the medical attention after I told him her symptoms. He said waiting two weeks would be fine since her health is otherwise normal.

What do you think/

Allie
The bird that lives with me is smarter than me!
allie
 
Posts: 74
Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 10:48 pm
Location: Southern USA

Postby Maggie » Thu Nov 30, 2006 5:40 pm

That's fine. But just be really protective about having her be put under anesthesia. Have them focus on being as non-obtrusive with her as possible.

Are you taking her? If they have to do anything "rough" to her, stay out of the room. This is so she won't blame you for the traumatic treatment.

Yes. There can be many reasons for feather abnormalty. Many Greys have red feathers on their bodies and that is normal. You may want to save the weird feathers to give to him.

Even if it turns out that she has PBFD, you will be able to keep her at home since there are no other birds to infect.

Keeping my fingers crossed,
Maggie-
Maggie
 

Postby allie » Thu Nov 30, 2006 10:53 pm

Thanks for the tips Maggie! Without them I'm sure I'd fall into the knowledgable hands of the vet for better or for worse. Glad you pointed out the anesthesia. It's really a shame that he won't see the feathers on her, as I was hoping he could maybe rule out a PBFD test just by exam. False hope I'm sure.

Well, I don't know who will take her. I have to be well-behaved so that I don' t make myself worse before her visit. I really want to be there for the long car ride. I'm so glad you pointed out staying out of the exam room for the nasty stuff. I really am worried about this breaking the trust she's gained in me.

My mother will drive us. However, if I can't go, I won't let my mother take her because I just can't trust her with an animal. She is NOT an animal person at all. IF I can't go, I'll try my sister, but she has 4 children and that's iffy. I don't know what I'll do if I can't go!! Thanks again for support. I'll have more questions as the date approaches about making her comfortable for the ride and even getting her out of her cage if she refuses!

Allie
The bird that lives with me is smarter than me!
allie
 
Posts: 74
Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 10:48 pm
Location: Southern USA

Postby Maggie » Fri Dec 01, 2006 12:20 am

Allie,

You can go into the exam room with her. But when they are going to do (if they do) "rough stuff," excuse yourself then. Maybe they will just physically look at her and get some kind of gram stain test.

He's right about the beak. Greys shed the beak every year and something new grows on.

I STILL could not get the programs to play.
Mag-
Maggie
 

Postby allie » Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:50 pm

Maggie, I talked to some people who go to this vet and they love him, and they are serious Grey people. They said, he takes them " into the back" by himself unless you ask specificallly to go back with them. One woman said that her bird actually LIKES him! I know Luna won't like him, but maybe it will be less stressful. Anyone who is so kind to people, and made special arrangement so that I can get scheduled at the vet school clinic just when he's there, has got to be kind and gentle, I hope.

Her beak is really peeling and cracking a lot. Someone suggested that it could be the good diet she's on that is making the beak start to grow well for the first time. I hope I'm not putting her through the vet visit for nothing. She lost another primary feather today which I thought was strange since the dropping phase of the molt ended about a month and a half ago, and the new ones have been coming in. Is this normal?

Her maroon tail feathers that are coming in have grey bands that are a bit raggedy looking. Guess we really do need to see the doctor to be sure. I just feel better cause the nasty ones fell out and I don' thave to see them daily, but that doesn't make the situation any better in reality.

Allie
The bird that lives with me is smarter than me!
allie
 
Posts: 74
Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 10:48 pm
Location: Southern USA

Postby Maggie- » Mon Dec 04, 2006 11:09 pm

Allie,

The lines across tail sound like stress lines. She HAS been thru a hell of a time.

It is GREY'T that Luna will get a thorough check with an animal loving and competent vet. You guys are lucky!

Congrats on the better food! Keep that thought about it being the trigger for the "beak renovation." HA!

They do molt yearly but they also lose and grow new feathers all year around. Not all of the feathers come out in the "bigger molt" period. They come out all year. Think about it. Birds would be in bad shape if they lost ALL of their feathers at once. How would they fly? How would they keep warm? You are observing normality here.

Keep me posted,
Maggie-
Maggie-
 


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